Okay, so this also includes a concept of roll-ups. And we've just released the first version of Mithril, and what's going to happen is Mithril is going to follow a very similar evolution to Hydra. But there is some science here, so there's kind of a question of Mithril 2.0 and how should we go about building good data availability layer for the system. Well, there's a great video that's from DC Spark and it says data availability Solutions overview Chia, Polygon, Algorand, Celestia, IPFS, and Ethereum.

This is probably the hardest thing I've ever tried to participate in in my career and no one has pulled this off in the cryptocurrency space, not Bitcoin, not Ethereum, no one. It's very easy to do parts of these types of things and there's legacy models to do these types of things but to do all of this as one bucket.

And the point of an aggregation point is you can bring all those amazing ideas into the ecosystem. So, if we see something that Polygon is doing or Solana is doing or Polkadot is doing or Algorand is doing or Ethereum proper is doing and it's a good idea, there's a place to bring people in and discuss it.

Meanwhile, the Ethereum people that eight years to figure how proof is taken, they gave you hotel California and they they gave you custodial staking that is not liquid.

More importantly, it's also a principle that everybody plays by the same rules. See, that's what makes Cardano so special. And that's what makes Bitcoin special. Ethereum special and other great protocols is this idea that everybody has to play by the same set of rules.

Joe Rogan really needs to have you on. Well, I've been trying to get on Rogan. You know, it's just an issue of timing and other things. We got the psychedelics research. I'm a bison rancher. We do guided hunts. I'm literally discovering alien shit in in Papua New Guinea, and I run six companies. We’ve got glowing plants. We are bringing it back the woolly mammoth, you know. Created Cardano, helped create Ethereum. At what point are you an interesting guest for a guy like Rogan, it's like, come on, guys.

The idea is that once things are where they need to be, and if we can get 1694 of a line based on the Community vote and Cardano hard forks to adopt that, it would be really cool to actually have the lab measure Cardano and see where our decentralization sits in relation to Bitcoin and other major cryptocurrencies like Ethereum.

There are still some frustrations and challenges here and there, but overall it's important to understand that this is not a copy paste of Ethereum. It's a completely different computational model. It's a completely different accounting model, so you can't reuse the code of Ethereum copy/paste here.

They are the ultimate opt-out. You see, it's not about tokens. This is not about some crypto wallet here or Cardano versus Ethereum. This is, at its core, about self-sovereignty and economic agency, and ultimately getting to an objective reality where we're all treated equally, and we all have access to the truth. Not the truth according to someone, but the truth, the objective reality of things, whether we like it or not, whether it offends us or not, whether it's convenient or not, or whether it perpetuates your business model or not.

This is antithetical to completely libertarian open cryptocurrency like Bitcoin or Ethereum or ADA but might be something you'd want to do if you are an issuer who's trying to have a regulated product, but you want to take advantage of the decentralization of the system. Now, why would you want to do that?...

So, we didn't get the Treasury system in. We had ideas about sidechains that were criticized. We had ideas about charming the consensus algorithm, creating more useful proof of work system. They were also criticized, so we still participated. We put a lot of money into Mantis. We created Mantis. In my view, it's the best of their client ever made, period. Ethereum - Etherum Classic. It's 15,000 lines of code. It's very concise. It's extremely well designed. It's. Performant. It's bug free, its security audited by a third party Kudelski, and that report is public. Honestly, you couldn't ask for more for a 1.0 product that was built from scratch for our ecosystem.

I'd like to believe that there's still lots of people in the Ethereum Classic community that have a good relationship with us and think we're good people and want to work with us, and I will make every effort to collaborate with those people.

Charles, how easy will it be for projects on Ethereum to switch over to ADA. So there are two schools of thought. And actually, they're philosophically represented by two completely different frameworks within the same Cardano ecosystem...

One school of thought is that most of what has been deployed on Ethereum, while well intended, doesn't really have viability or good business model behind it. Rather, they live in the prototyping or proof of concept. And there's going to need to be considerable redesigned re architecting and in some cases, just completely recoding of what's been done to make it eventually work in the future.

And then it's an argument of security, performance and operational cost. If you're a dapp developer, maybe the initial set because they were ICO funded are Ether guys, but if this is actually going to be a real ecosystem, you're viewing Ethereum as infrastructure like Amazon Web Services or Rackspace.

So, you should be able to go from JavaScript to Yella, ????? and Yella and so forth, and the SBC will give lots of language interpolability. So traditional developers can come and all that enhanced the Ethereum tooling.

And then we could just make an argument that it's faster, cheaper, safer throughout our system than it is on the Ethereum system, and a lot of people will end up agreeing with us on that.

So that means that you can use it for Ethereum, you can it for Cardano or other platforms. That's the vision. We have, containerization experts we've hired and other people we've hired, we've brought.

One of the reasons why a large majority of Dapps in Ethereum don't work or have been riddled with security flaws. We had things like the DAO hack because the initial group of developers who were developing for Ethereum, we're pretty junior. Some were experts in doing great work and there's some great examples of that If you look at...

Solidity code where it's incredibly well written, but the system was over accessible and it emphasized mass adoption when it made no sense to emphasize mass adoption because we didn't have any Ethereum ecosystem, a lot of things figured out that you need to figure it out be able to comfortably write code.

If we bet wrong, we have a backup plan that's Yella, which we will continue to invest heavily in and that will allow everything in the Ethereum ecosystem work at our ecosystem and our eventually people to port over Java and C# and so forth.

What would you like to deploy them onto the system. What can you deploy today to Ethereum?

Well, Ray, what can you deploy today that you don't have to also connect to a server if it operates at scale? Go ahead and create Uber on a blockchain. You come back to me and tell me how much your operating cost is on Ethereum for that or EOS or any of these other guys?

I could fork Ethereum any day with my own software and give you guys an EVM. Great. Have I innovated? Have I given you a good development experience. Have I given you a secure environment to write these things in good languages to write these things in? No! And nor have the competitors.

They don't have anything that we have. They just don't. They have a fantasy, a fantasy that in 2017 was worth a lot of money and in 2018 disintegrated. And over 94% the value is lost in ????? of the Ethereum side.

They took old ideas from the 1980s and both some sort of voting system on top and said look how amazing we are, or they took Ethereum and forked it and said they're the world's best standard and they just ship faceless, lots of crap.

It's incredibly important to understand that when Shelley comes out, Cardano is basically on same footing with every other major cryptocurrency in the space, and that it is fully decentralized to be 50 to 100 times more decentralized than Ethereum, Bitcoin and EOS....

And sending hundreds of emails with advice and well wishes and sometimes constructive criticism. That's the sign of a healthy, vibrant community, and it's one that I've only seen once before, not with Ethereum, but with Bitcoin itself.

First off, Ethereum Classic. This one has been a pretty difficult, uh topic for me personally because you know Ethereum Classic was the unintended product, the unintended project. Uh, there was no plan to create Ethereum Classic. It came as a result of an event, and back when I joined the community, it was unclear whether the community was going to go anywhere, the project was going to go anywhere. It was unclear if the Ethereum classic c was going to survive, but it was mostly a protest coin...

We said we don't know where we're going. We don't know what's going to happen but you know, we feel that this this issue with the DAO hack has been handled very poorly and that many people invested in who got involved in Ethereum believing that code is law. Even language was made illegality ????? and a lot of people cared a lot about basically preserving the original intent as they saw of the Ethereum blockchain, which had then been violated by this hard fork...

And hopefully grow and become its own thing. So, I put my money where my mouth was, opened up my wallet, and spent my own money to build a client from scratch. Now what's happened since that event, we've seen Mantis grow from a concept to an actual production system that now works both with Ethereum and Ethereum Classic. And members of the Ethereum Foundation have even reached out to us, asking us to find a way to change the software license, which we will do from MIT to Apache, and try to make it a Hyperledger project so that people in the Ethereum ecosystem can use our code base for their products and projects and it can be under good governance...

We've also seen now two major summits for Ethereum. One was in South Korea, the other was in Hong Kong, and we've seen a formation of a reasonable governance group within the ecosystem.

So, there's an open question now of well, what should IOHK participation be with Ethereum Classic and does this participation in any way compromise our ability to work on Cardano, slow it down, or in some way compete with the mission goal and vision of Cardano? Well, in a way, there's been a great degree of synergy...

The work on Ethereum Classic has definitely helped us have a production system that we could very quickly repurpose to test Ethereum interoperability for smart contracts in our system. So just by having Mantis, we were very easily able to plug in the K-EVM and plug in Yella and run solidity code in our system...

It would have been much harder to do that and more expensive to run these tests had we not done what we did with Ethereum Classic.

Second building that client trained our developers to understand how the Ethereum ecosystem worked. They literally started from nothing, just from the IELE paper and from the documentation and wrote 100% new code in Scala, so that exercise was incredibly valuable, creating a knowledge transfer and bridging the skill gap so that we understood where Ethereum is at and all the things it could do and all the things it couldn’t do. It's easy to be overly academic or to kind of throw the baby out with the bathwater...

One of the most difficult parts for our participation was that we predicted that there would be funding issues with Ethereum, we wrote several blog posts and lectured on a pretty regular basis about the need for something like a treasury in Ethereum Classic...

So now we're left in a situation where we're not getting any value as a company for contributing to the Ethereum Classic. We're left in a situation where the community has been very resistant historically to attempting to create mechanisms such as a treasury system to give us some certainty that if we participate as a company in the effort, we can recoup our losses, recoup our bills, and continue to contribute, and that we've already gained...

As much value as a company as we can from Ethereum classic at the moment, there's nothing innovative in the road map unless we propose something, and we do have many great things.

We have nipals ?????. We have a DAG protocol called parallel Change which works very well for proof of work. We have considerable improvements we've made to the Ethereum virtual machine. And all of these things could be put into a Ethereum classic. They take time, effort and money and a great degree of coordination, and to me it doesn't feel like it's worth the effort to put these things in, given the current structure of things...

So, we'll talk to the existing members of the Ethereum Classic community and see if there's some way that our continued participation can be subsidized. If we can't come to that arrangement, what we're going to do is retire the Mantis client for the Ethereum classic. We'll continue to support the Hyperledger version if we can get it into the Hyperledger for Ethereum support, because there was commercial value in that...

You cannot make an unlimited infinite commitment to something you have to at some point. Say that there has to be something that comes back, and we've delivered. We at the moment you could run 100% of the Ethereum Classic network on Mantis...

It is still the only client that was built from the ground up specifically for Ethereum Classic, and it was built in Scala, and it was built with great engineering practices, and it was built by great engineers, and it was built in a very transparent way. If you go to our YouTube page, IOHK YouTube, you can see the weekly stand-up meetings that we did for Mantis, and I think there's damn near hundreds of them, and we didn't miss a single one every week we showed up and we, even if there was a little progress or a lot of progress, we showed it off and people could watch us go from an idea to a fully constructed client and they can see the commits in the repository...

So, moving into 2019, we'll see what we do. But at the moment, unless the funding source comes in for Ethereum Classic, we're going to retire that team. We learned a lot. We love the. Community, we love the people there and we think it was worth the effort worth the time that was put in.

I had a great chance to go talk to the guys at Tangem. Now these are these are pretty cool. So these are actually full Bitcoin and Ethereum wallets and those little chips, right there are actually NFC trusted hardware modules and basically to use them. It's really nifty. I'll show you guys.

There's about 10 years of history in the cryptocurrency space and there's a lot of projects that focus a lot on governance From Dash to Tazos and there's good models to learn from, and my belief is that this does not not not be USP. This ought to be a best practice. Like like the Bitcoin improvement proposal of the Ethereum improvement proposal.

And there's already starting to emerge a whole development experience with this whole notion of Web3, where you can take that notion of a decentralized infrastructure and connect it to your web application and what's really important to me is to avoid vendor lock in what I don't want to happen is to say that once you've committed and you've deployed on a particular piece of infrastructure, whether that be Ethereum or Cardano or EOS, whatever that might be, that you're locked in and you're trapped there.

I don't worry about Ethereum's proof of stake at all. So, the question is what do you think about Ethereum running proof of stake they ever get here - great. Welcome to the party. I feel we are ahead of them in terms of research and in terms of engineering, in terms of clarity. On how we're going to roll it out, what we're going to do. They worry about fundamentally different problems than we worry about.

And frankly, if you wanted to Shard with the approach that Ethereum is using, it would make a lot more sense if they just did a state based election system with a, you know, like an MPC generating random numbers and elect, you know, 250 delegates and have them run something like rapid chain.

What do you do? Well, cryptocurrencies have money at stake. They have, and they're not big. If you actually look at these protocols like we wrote for Ethereum Classic and now it works with Ethereum, a client, a full node and it's only 15,000 lines of code in Scala. So, at the end of the day, these protocols that are in the cryptocurrency space, the infrastructure layers...

In addition to that, we'd like to set up a podcast where we run it maybe once to twice a week, similar in format to the let's Talk Ethereum podcast, let's talk, ETC Podcast at Christian Severino runs, but given the scope and scale of Cardano we'd like that podcast to be run by more than a single host.

So that's the whole point of having an overlay layer like for example when you want to mix accounting computation together. As Ethereum has done. Or, as EOS has done, or the other guys have done.

There's not a master slave relationship. It's a firewall relationship, meaning that it's easy to move assets to and from. On the 1st generation of sidechains we launch, will be custom tailored for K-EVM and IELE, as this is for interoperability with those smart contract paradigms, but later versions will include more generalities, so we can wire our system together with things like ETC and Ethereum and future versions of other protocols or potentially even Bitcoin, depending upon where their upgrade path sits and your cryptocurrency as well, just follow an open standard.

So Michael Shin is talking about a Dapp store for Cardano. This something near and dear to my heart. Recently Naomi Brockwell released a video of me when I was the CEO of the Ethereum project. Very early days - April of 2014. Part of the pre interview I was actually discussing this idea of Universal App Store for dapps. don't know if that made into the interview or not. I can't recall, but that was something I did discuss a lot back in those days and it's something I never forgot about.

So if you Google Mad Max Ethereum gas pricing something like that, you'll see a paper that was submitted to people in the no.

Whenever you create something good, people fork it. People steal it like no one really cared about Ethereum until Ethereum was successful and everybody wanted to be Ethereum and a lot of people forked Ethereum and stole the code and said, hey, look, we're better than Ethereum.

There are things that can go wrong there in plutocracies, not necessarily the best government. So, you have to think carefully long term about how to ameliorate that. So, it's the first step. There have been many finally. There's also this idea of computational fuel, which is what Ethereum pioneered.

So, there was a great paper written by IBM called Adept, and they were using TeleHash, BitTorrent and the Ethereum blockchain back in, I think it was 2015 to study IT and I'd encourage people to look into that paper and I see things like HOLO chain or avalanche, just kind of a natural continuation of that line of thought, but with different ways of handling consensus.

So Litecoin is the silver to bitcoins gold and then feather coin comes out where the copper to the silver right and that's where we're at and then suddenly, you know this innovation comes out and says, hey. Ethereum and NXT actually got to give the NXT guys credit. They were actually the 1st in my view, major innovation and bitshares was pretty innovative too.

And so these new wave of things like bit shares and NXT and Ethereum came out and then it got really interesting there. And then all this new stuff came on the that and now we're entering the third generation. So Vitalik is right, we've probably peaked on the 2nd and we're getting crowded in that side of the space.

And So, what we haven't figured out in the cryptocurrency space is what that triangle needs to look like for us to actually have an innovation. So, for example, if you have crypto kitties. Should 100% of that run on Ethereum? Or is it OK for a large chunk of that to run on a server?

And maybe we use Ethereum as a verifier and an auditor to make sure that there's a consistent state amongst the users, but the actual game itself is conducted out of band and there's some notion of eventual so eventual.

So the other side of Cardano is about thinking more holistically about where or how, when and who are going to run my applications and what am I giving up for what I'm gaining and have a much more nuanced scenario than the replicated computational environment that Ethereum has, which is you add more minors.

So there's already been a lot of innovation done in the Ethereum community and it would be nice to leverage that innovation and try to take it to the next level.

And there are some people in the ethereum community who really care about this a lot.

We've done already one major update to it and in my opinion, it's the best Ethereum client on the market.

Like Ethereum support and ERC 20 support and so forth, and some enhancements we've made to.

Recapping the whole year, you know, the other thing is I've become good friends with a lot of people in the Ethereum Classic ecosystem, and so it is really cool.

The success of Ethereum kind of was the end of Bitcoin maximalism in my approximation because it proved you could have legitimate options that weren't clones of Bitcoin that had totally new innovations and brought completely new ideas.

One of the great advantages of working with the Ethereum Classic community is that they proved how to do that.

And we think that they're going to bring a heck of a lot of innovation to the space, which is very different than the innovation that was brought with the Ethereum model.

IELE ellow is more of a logical refinement of everything that Ethereum was about, and just trying to take an old thing and make it better.

You know, it's really a bad world if everything you do vendor locks you into a particular blockchain solution like Ethereum or EOS or Cardano.

There's dozens of them running around, even some people in the Ethereum space are starting to take this real seriously.

This is the philosophical difference between ourselves and EOS and Ethereum and other ventures in the space.

Google is a multinational company, one of the largest, most powerful engineering companies in the world. They have some phenomenal scientists working at Google from world famous cryptographers to infosec people. If Google is going to do a cryptocurrency, they don't need to partner with me, they don't need to partner with Ethereum or Bitcoin or anything else. They're just going to go ahead and do their own thing.

Then there needs to be an entity that's kind of the evangelist, and it goes around and says you should build on Cardano, use Cardano in your stack. Cardano is the most amazing thing in the whole world and that entity is EMURGO, they're kind of like our version of Consensus. Consensus is tremendously successful for the Ethereum ecosystem, and they've done just amazing work for Ethereum, and our hope was that there could be a Consensus for Cardano, and that's what EMURGO does, amongst other things.

OK. And I told you how to fold it. That was the input. Well, here's the problem. How do you know that I've actually done that computation correctly? This is a broader problem in outsourcing computation, so the solution for Ethereum is by replication.

We're going to go with it and that's basically how Ethereum works. You have a collection of shared computation. These nodes will do it, and if you have a majority answer, that's the answer. Well, the problem is that doesn't scale because as you add more nodes to do the computation, you're getting more assurance that the computation has been done correctly, but you're not actually speeding the computation up.

Second, they need to understand that you haven't double spent those tokens. So how do we know that you've taken legitimate Bitcoin and you haven't also sent it to Dash, or you sent it to Ethereum or something like that? So, there is an existential question, and then there's a non-existence of a double transaction.

Now that Ethereum Classic has a good foothold will IOHK continue to support ETC development? That's a good question. So, you know, when ETC first came out, I wanted to prove a point, that it is immoral when you advertise something for an ICO to then turn tail and completely do the opposite because of legal inconvenience.

Sorry, if you sold something you have to deal with the consequences. So, when I got involved in Ethereum Classic, if anything, it was to prove that principles matter and that it's not OK to reverse. People need to have the option if they believe in what Vitalik has done, they can keep with Ethereum.

If they believe that the original intent should be maintained, they can sell their Ether and stay within the Ethereum Classic ecosystem and basically people were given a proper choice, not a rushed choice. Now one of the problems is that the Ethereum Classic community in the beginning had no credibility because the majority of the infrastructure developers went over to Ethereum.

So, the Rust guys, the Geth guys, these people, they lived on the Ethereum side and there was nothing going on on the Ethereum Classic side that would indicate that Ethereum Classic actually had the competency you would expect of someone who could not only maintain the chain, but also upgrade the chain and grow the chain.

So, we felt it was very important for us to invest money into building from the ground up a completely new client from nothing. So we just took the IELE paper, the documentation we borrowed no code, we brought together a great team of Scala developers. We called them the growth team and we said to have fun, and they spent basically a year constructing at the moment the most concise Ethereum client ever built.

It's only about 12,000 lines of code. It's got beautiful test coverage. It's been security audited. It's fast, it's easy to use, it has the Daedalus frontend and we're going to make a lot of improvements to make that even better and bring in native ERC20 support so you can hold your ERC20 tokens in and in addition to Ethereum classic and we just went and did that.

Now we're at a point where Mantis is not only out, it's gone through a major update and it's going to go through an even another major update. And we have to kind of make a decision of where will IIOHK go with Ethereum Classic.

So we're going to have a summit in September, and I'll be attending and presenting and we're going to be showing off our latest version of Mantis where we have built in Ethereum support. So now Mantis targets both Ethereum Classic, Ethereum, and it's an ERC20 wallet. So, you can basically have a God's eye view of all those asset types, and it will have a few other things built under the hood that are very nice. And because this is a full node you can actually technically run the entire Ethereum network or entire Ethereum Classic. Just off that code base.

Then we'll discuss at the summit with the other people what should 2019 look like, and does it make sense to scale up effort, keep the effort at the same level or gradually scale down effort and, you know, let the community manage that that node that we've written, but I think it's overall mission accomplished most people respect Ethereum Classic at this point. Anything, just for its principles. Most of the fights of the past have been resolved and even Vitalik himself stil holds his Ethereum Classic. And a lot of people in Ethereum ecosystem, turns out never sold their Ethereum classic

Bitcoin only covers a small sliver of it, and that's one of the original biggest frustrations that I had and others had with Bitcoin was It only covered a sliver of this beautiful, rich financial ecosystem. So what we decided to do is say, all right, why don't we build an accounting ledger that allows you to represent the types of assets and those types of transactions in the most efficient and parallelizable way possible? 00:20:29 So, you can get these to scale long-term performance, but then you can also do everything that Wall Street is used to doing. So, we created a domain-specific language called Marlowe. We also created a general-purpose programming language that was functional that Marlowe embeds in called Plutus, and we really rigorously thought about the UTXO accounting model. We also came up with a method to issue assets within that model that's interoperable with the Ethereum-style account.

So, that’s awesome and that’s gonna to kind of finish what Bitcoin started. Then you have the Ethereum-style computational model, which is replicated on some notion of distributed computation. But what if these programs are stateful? You send messages to them, they wake up, they do something, they output something, and you can chain them together. There are all sorts of crazy things you can do.

So if you want to build a DAO or you want to build a ride-sharing application and these types of things, you can now create these types of programs. Ethereum kind of brought this model to the forefront. It's a cool model and an interesting model. The problem is that model currently does not scale, and anyone who's actually using that model for anything that’s more than a toy has had to interface that with off-chain activity.

Basically, they've either had to leave Ethereum or create a two-layer network where the blockchain does a little something, and then there's some server off in the distance that does something else. That's OK, because it's prototype technology and, you know, not so capable in the beginning. So, we have a bunch of threads of research that we're conducting about how do we make that model better.

Secondly, you have to ensure that when you do things on this slow engine, they're done as securely as possible, as reliably as possible, and with the most interoperability as possible. That's why we engage with runtime verification. We spent a lot of time and effort understanding Ethereum, so they wrote the K-EVM paper, wrote formal semantics for that, but then also built something completely new that is built from the ground up to be really the best foundation for a virtual machine for smart contracts in this model.

Let's be the best accounting model and replicate everything that Wall Street needs. Let's be the best Ethereum model so we can be both interoperable with what Ethereum has done and future proof for everything that people are going to want to do and allow them to write smart contracts in the languages that they care to.

OK, that layer would be faster and have more capabilities than Ethereum and would certainly have a kind of a better development experience because we probably could be more clever about the surface languages that target IELE.

We already have an Ethereum version of CL running. It's been running for over a month and the IELE version will be running at the end of this month, so you know all the things you come to know and love with Ethereum you'll be able to do, and then we'll have some new capabilities that we roll out as well.

For example, if you look at Ethereum and Bitcoin, the coupling over time has already started to naturally decrease. And when Ethereum goes up or down, or Bitcoin goes up or down, they don't impact each other as much as you'd think. They still do bitcoins, still a Goliath, and Bitcoin usually is the kind of the Canary in the coal mine.

So, it's just Max and Oliver, and it's like, OK, you have some money and passion, but you need to build a team. So, we talked for a while, and my advice was I could become an advisor and help you guys, since you now have capital, to make some obviously good decisions. For instance, you couldn't have money sitting in a trust or personal account; you needed to put that money into some sort of legal structure designed to accomplish the mission of the people who gave you the money, like with the Ethereum, Vitalik and the rest put the money in the Ethereum Foundation.

And you know IOHK is not just the Cardano company. We're a blockchain company and we build blockchain technology. We develop protocols, and as a consequence of developing those, we're always thinking carefully about who could benefit the most. For instance, I recently tweeted to Justin Sun, recommending that he use Mantis for Tron because I noticed that Justin seems to be using Ethereum Java with some modifications, but it's still essentially Ethereum Java.

That code base is not optimal, and if you want to be on the Java virtual machine and use Ethereum, I feel that Mantis would be a far better foundation to build on with much more potential for innovation than Ethereum Java offers. Plus, there's less risk given our code of security. That's why I made that recommendation—it's open-source technology with no partnership. I don't profit from it. I'm merely suggesting that they have a community, and if they fail, it could hurt a lot of people.

Nick Szabo had it in the 90s and guys like Sergio Lerner had been working on it in the early 20012/2013 Vitalik was working on it, so we teamed up together and we created Ethereum and you know, obviously Ethereum kind of led the second major wave and also brought the ICO Revolution and so forth.

Well, here's what happened The Ethereum and the ICO Revolution changed the narrative and stole the entire spotlight that Bitcoin had.

And it was equally Likely when you ran into a taxi driver and you were talking about cryptocurrencies that they held Ethereum then they held Bitcoin, and a lot of people actually believe that Ethreum could actually supplant Bitcoin one day, so there was a reaction that said, "Hey, no, Bitcoin is the only thing. Everything else is useless. It's all a scam because of a premine.” Because of this, logic just went completely out the door, and it almost became like a cult.

Unfortunately, that just doesn't seem to be the case. But that is what it is. So maximalism, in my view, is bad. Maximalism, in my view, will slow down the ecosystem and in my view, will make Bitcoin much less competitive. And we live in a Darwinian environment, so it doesn't really matter, because that will not slow down the cryptocurrency space. That will not slow down my innovation or Ethereum innovation or other actor's innovation. And we're just going to keep going till someone gets it done.

It's incredibly frustrating. Twitter is just a bad platform. It's not innovative, it's old. It really needs a refresh. They need to think more careful about it and you know, Slack has its issues too. We originally created the Cardano and Ethereum Classic communities in Slack.

So, the act of doing everything that we figured out how to do for Ethereum has been franchised, white-labelled, and is now a science now. People know how to do it really well, and Ethereum is used as the majority platform because it's the most secure, it's the largest, and it's the best understood, with the best tooling existing there.

We get all that tooling for free with the K-EVM, so anything built for Ethereum runs in our system, but it runs faster, safer, and better. So, if people are just doing apples to apples, we'd be a great platform for that. But we're entering ICO 2.0, which is the notion of the security token.

Then if the token has real utility and it actually really does become decentralized and the person who sold it is no longer necessary to maintain it, like what's recently happened with Ethereum, the token may become a non security and as a consequence of being a non security it would then be regulated by a different agency. In this case probably the CFTC for the United States.

For example orbs is deploying as an ERC 0 token on Ethereum. But you don't actually get any utility or use out of that. You have to send it to an overlay system that actually runs its own BFT and it does all the magic and it's doing its own thing.

...and then to make matters worse, Microsoft tried to get people into a development paradigm called ActiveX, which was horribly insecure, and it was very bad for everybody, but it also locked people into Internet Explorer, and now we see companies running around and say use Ethereum or use EOS or use IOTA or use Cardano.

So the whole point of the Daedalus model that we've developed for Cardano is this idea of an application ecosystem and it's blockchain agnostic. So you'll be able to deploy that on Ethereum or deploy that on Cardano, you want to go live in hell, deploy it EOS.

I don't always agree with the Vitalik, but I've never had a bad conversation with him and I do respect him. He's a good guy at the end of the day and he It's good work. and I will never in my life ever say that he doesn't care about Ethereum or the mission of Ethereum or the goals of Ethereum.

So, as it stands right now, what we believe the best option is to take the Mantis client that we've constructed for Ethereum Classic ETC and to make the virtual machine component of the Mantis client pluggable.

So, at the moment it's using the Ethereum virtual machine.

I understand how difficult this is. We live in a space that tends to measure things in terms of days and weeks. And most of our competitors tend to deal with forked code so they don't start from scratch. They start from Bitcoin, or they start from Ethereum or from Bithares.